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Radical Candor
Radical Candor

Episode 10 · 2 years ago

Radical Candor S2, Ep.10: You Can't Talk to Me That Way

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

If someone has approached you and said, "In the spirit of Radical Candor ..." and then proceeded to act like a total jerk, you've experienced how some people use Radical Candor to justify being their worst selves. This behavior is not Radical Candor; it's what we call Obnoxious Aggression. Kim, Jason and Amy agree that nobody should have to pay the asshole tax or work for a seagull swoop-and-poop boss. They also explain why Radical Candor is actually compassionate candor versus a license to act like a jerk.

Hello everybody, and welcome to the radical candor podcast. I'm Kim Scott, author of a radical candor and cofounder of the company also radical candor, and I'm Jason Rose off, CEO and Co founder of radical candor, and I'm Amy Sandler, your host for the podcast radical candor, how to kick ass at work without losing your humanity. Today we're talking about a subject that's near and dear to our hearts, which is that radical candor is not brutal honesty or what we call in the radical candor framework, obnoxious aggression. One of the most painful things that has happened amaze since the book came out is will be working together with a team and we're sort of helping people roll out the ideas of radical candor and we'll walk into a room and somebody will charge in and say in the spirit of radical candor, and then they will proceed to act like a garden variety jerk. And this is not the spirit of radical candor. And yet this happens all the time. In fact, HBO's Silicon Valley, the TV show, did kind of a spoof on radical candor and there was this coo in the show who is really acting like a complete asshole and calling it radical candor. So when I saw that it was, I mean it sold a lot of books, so I wasn't that sad about it on the one hand, but on the other hand I was very sad about it because that's not the spirit of radical candor. This is something I've given a lot of thought to since, since the book has come out, how to really think through explaining to people the difference between radical candor and I'm notious aggression, in fact, as part of what prompted me to write the second edition of the book, where I offer people a new framework, compassionate candor. It's really interesting, even when we are in workshops and we explain the idea of calling it compassionate candor, how some light bulbs go off and also an awareness that would a book called Compassionate Candor have been as successful as a book called Radical Candy? Yeah, almost, probably not in fact, especially one written by a woman. I think it would have been easier if I were a man, to get away with calling it compassionate candor. It makes me think when I started juice, the software company that I write a lot about in the book and where I learned a lot of hard, hard lessons about management. Someone said to me something along the lines of Kim this is so interesting. You hate the man and now you are the man, because I would CEO of the company. I think that that has a lot to do with thinking about how to be radically candid, and the truly radical, radically candid sense of the in the compassionately candid sense of the word, because very often part of the problem here is being unaware of power you have. Very often, when you have power in a situation, you can come off as obnoxiously aggressive when your intentions are not at all to be a dirk chas him. What if you noticed, either for yourself or even with folks that you've worked with, about the relationship between power and obnoxious aggression? Well, I think there's there's a subtlety here, because I think it is quite common for the pattern of I'm a I'm a leader in this organization and I really want to be able to offer radical candor to all of my underlings and every time I do they get they get annoyed with me because that, they say, I'm acting like a dirt, but I'm just being radically hint like that is a pattern that we see repeat itself over and over again, and so...

...it's worth taking that moment to explore, like, why am I to be coming across that way? And I think in many cases there's a simple reason why it comes across that way, because the power that is inherent in that person's position makes the critique seem as though it is a career upending issue right, which is like the CEO notice me doing something wrong, that probably means I'm going to get fired, and so, because that is likely to have me, because there's a likely there's a high degree of social threat inherent in a critique coming from someone with power to someone without power, there is often that perception and the antidote, we say, is like you need to take the time to actually demonstrate that you care, that this is coming from a place of care, and there are some leaders who do this with real grace, to like who you have ways of helping people see, like I'm not telling you this because I don't believe in you. I'm telling you this exactly because I do believe in you. Would like because I know that you can do better, and so it's been really interesting to see those conversations play out like often, as a facilitator, I found myself not even having to say much. Well, as two leaders in the room sort of talk to each other about their experiences of one another's feedback, because often the person who's saying I'm really good at radical candors, everybody misinterprets me. It's not only in those relationships where that power dynamic is big, it's even in those relationships where those where people might consider them appear, and so there's this pattern of behavior that emerges. I think another thing that happens is that we talk a lot about how important it is for radical canter to be a conversation and not a monolog and if one person has too much power, the other person doesn't dare speak back. And if you feel that it is dangerous to correct, I mean because we say, you know, you got to be humble when you offer radical candor. You may be wrong, you may be wrong about what you're saying, but it may be difficult for the person to tell you that you're wrong. And so if it feels unsafe to correct, the radical canter to say actually, that was not a mistake I made. I did it for this, this and this reason, and I did the right thing, not the wrong thing. If the person who you're talking to doesn't feel free to disagree with you, and they won't feel free to disagree with you if you have the power to fire them, then you need to figure out what you can do to lay that power down and new to have a truly radically candid conversation. What's interesting and what you're sharing, both you and Jason, is something that I've noticed and Kim you've spoken to recently, which is as companies grow from kind of a small start up where there's maybe some cofounders or people that know each other well and have a really shorthand way of communicating, what might be radically candid between them, and then is its scales, that shorthand way of communicating is going to land very different. And so some of the things that I've noticed in workshops, Jason, to your point of people are having a conversation between the two of us and that might be the way those two communicate, but how it lands for people that are a few layers down not in that room can land as very obnoxiously aggressive. I don't know if that's something you've noticed. As companies grow, that what worked in a smaller group can actually want. It goes out, multiple layers can land in a very different way. I noticed that personally when I was in product I had a person in engineering who is I worked with at two different companies for nine years and to it all and over that time we developed a very short and way of communicating with each other and we were very comfortable disagreeing with one another and vigorously disagreeing with one another. And I remember was a short time into our our time together at con oft, which my the last coming I was a part of end, and someone made this offhanded comment of like Oh, it makes us, it makes us nervous when when mom and dad are fighting, and I was like, oh, that's really interesting, like because,...

...like, I don't even see it as a I don't see as a fight. I don't feel like with there's there's like there's tension, but there's not. There's not anger, you know, there's not like there's not animus. But it made me reflect on it and then a few weeks later we were having another one of our animated conversations on the street. We're actually pulled over by the Mount View Police Department and we were asked if we're okay, because it looked like we were going to punch each other in the face and at that point I think we both realize that there was an issue with the way that we're communicating with each other. That was not translating, forget several layers, like even the casual observer was having an under hard time understanding that there was care there. We've had disagreements with Jason, but we've never I've never experienced it's very interesting that this is possible from you. Actually, I would like to see it. I actually think in part of the reason why I'm telling the stories because this was like a bit of a water shed moment for me and realizing the impact of my behavior and how scrutinized I was as a leader, because any exactly to your point, like something that Ben and I were very comfortable with and had no negative impact on our relationship whatsoever, gave other people the impression that it had a negative impact, and so I started to understand my behavior through that lens of like, other people are looking to me as a role model, and most of the people in that room did not have, at that point, a seven year relationship with everyone else that they were working with, and so I had to be conscious of the behavior that I was demonstrating and that led to overtime and awareness. I enjoy a good argument and my awareness of that, like debate actually is in a comfortable place for everybody, especially like an animated or sort of like you know, we're emotion like emotion becomes a part of the debate is not comfortable for everybody in the silencing effect that that was having. So part of the reason you don't see it is because I got that feedback and I started to work on that behavior. It's interesting because I had kind of a similar situation, I think I'd tell the story in the book in fact, where there was a guy who had worked for me for a long time and we had a similar kind of relationship. We were internationalizing ad sense and this guy kept confusing Slovakia and Slovenia, which are two very different countries, and happened to have spent time in the regions. I was very aware of this and I corrected him once, I corrected him twice and then the third time he did it, I was like it's Slovakia, dumb ass, not Slovenia, and which was not the nicest that like that was obnoxious aggression, except in the context of our relationship there was a shorthand and he understood. He knew that I cared, he knew that I respect did him. He knew this was just my way of getting his attention. But not everybody else in the room knew that. Everybody kind of looked at me like I was you know. So you do have to be aware that other people may not have the context of your relationship and then they might be of afraid to make a mistake because they don't want to get called dumb asses exactly. It's tricky because you want to have natural, authentic relationships, but you need to be aware that those naturally authentic relationship sometimes need to happen in private. This is one of the problems with like radical transparency. There are aspects of relationships that do need to happen him in private, not necessarily in public. You know, we talk a lot about radical candors measured not at the speaker's mouth but at the listener's ear, and that makes a lot of sense when it's one to one, but when it's one to one plus a few other people in the room, and how is it landing? I mean I was doing a workshop overseas where there was some humor between two people that landed very inappropriately for some of the other people in the room who are brand new, and so it was very excit. Think the same thing happens with humor, where there's a shared understanding of what a joke is, but when it is extrapolated to other people that aren't in on that joke, it can sound actually quite offensive. humors particularly tricky because very often humor, when it's at its best, is a way. It's ha ha Aha. It can reveal something, but very often we use...

...humor to vary something that needs to be revealed. And like I think when someone tells you something that you meant is funny as offensive, pay attention. Don't say it was just a dove, because we do often misuse humor to to justify expressing something that's biased or racist or sexist. There's one other thing on my mind, which is what happens when someone like fails in humility and how how connected that that is to like this radical candor becomes obnoxious aggression thing. And you know, we say in the framework, and can you spent a lot time talking about this in the book to of, just like we need to beware of like the capital t truth and sometimes the this this like obnoxious aggression, radical candor. The the thing that takes us over into havenxous aggression is when we assume that not only do we know exactly what happened, do another truth of the facts of the matter, but we know the motivations behind it or that we know the solution, that we know the answer like and how to fix it. And that's the other place where I think there's like contradictory information in the world, because often people say, like don't give feedback unless you're willing to help the other person solve the problem. And so people assume that that means you give the feedback and then you immediately give the solution to the to the problem. Yeah, and you may not know the solution, but that doesn't mean it's not helpful to give the feedback correct and so like this idea of like often when we're trying to help in these situations, it's very easy for that to come across a sort of like pedantic or even belittling or arrogant, and why it's so important to like give some air time to like actually talk about the feedback itself before you go in a problem solving to say, like to stop at no, this is my perspective, like, do you agree? You shared it that you experience this in the same way. Am I on my own here? Like to check that first, because if someone doesn't agree with the the premise, you immediately shift in solutions. Now you've got two problems that you need to like fix because the person is still has does not feel heard or understood in the first place, and in the second place, they're you're having an argument about the solution to a problem that you don't even agree on, which is waste of time and often comes across as obnoxious. In fact, it is obnoxious. It is anxious. That's a good point. It's really obnoxious. I'll even say I'll just state it isn't. It is obnoxious for me to say. You know, I know the truth and and let me tell you what the truth is. We were having some work done on our house and one of the contractors was just reaming out one of the people working on the house and and I kind of when over there to make sure everything was fine, and he said to me, after you know, I read your book and this is like this and I was like, Oh, no, it really yeah, it is the house of radicity, radical candor, and I was like that that's not really what I was suggesting that you do. I mean, he was talking to this guy as though he was as father, as though he were an abusive parents. The only thing I can say it was like let me tell you how the world works and how you have to adjust it. You know, like once again one of those painful moments where I was like, Gosh, you know, my my suggestions have been badly misunderstood here. So so I hope one of the things that that we can do with his podcast and that I'll do with the next book, as I tell people not only how to solicit radical candor and how to give radical canter, but how to respond to anxious aggression, to bullying behavior, in a in a way that can move a situation towards radical candor. Because if we if we can't do that, then we're not going to get to a place of radical candor.

So, Kim, one of the things when the book originally came out and was shared was this idea that, you know, radical candor is optimum and if there's anything that second best. It's obnoxious aggression, not because of noxious aggression is good, but because at least the person is aware of the mistake that they're making, whereas the other two quadrants, ruinous empathy and manipulative vicincerity, you don't actually know what the issue is. So you at least know that there's a problem, but at the cost of the relationship. So I wonder, as you're reconsidering or looking at some of the ways in which radical kinder was weaponized or misinterpreted, do you still feel that way, that obnoxious aggression is kind of second best or it do you have? Do you want to revisit that that idea? So the the thing about obnoxious aggression is that it actually works better than ruinous empathy, and so I think part of the reason why there's this false dichotomy in the world is that people think they have to choose between ruinous sympathy and obnoxious aggression and if they have to make that choice, they're going to choose obnoxious aggression because it actually works better. My real goal is not to do any of the bad stuff, to do the good stuff, but I do want to acknowledge that it is it is very true what happens often as companies evolve. But we've worked with a bunch of fast growing startups and they start out pretty radically candid to small group of people. They all care a lot about each other and and they're all very clear with one another when things aren't working and and that clarity is part of their success and their success helps them grow. And as they grow they get more people and it's harder to be radically candid with people you don't know well. And sometimes, as we were just talking about, what is radical canter between two people gets misinterpreted as obnoxious aggression by third parties and people tend to drift towards ruin a sympathy. As as groups get larger, as you grow from ten to a hundred to four hundred people, there's a natural drift towards ruin a sympathy because you don't want to hurt people's feelings. There's this sort of idea that I'll just get to know people and then as I get to know them, then I'll be radically you know, it's a justification for not offering. It's a rationalization for not offering the radical canter. And the problem with ruin a sympathy. In addition to the fact that it doesn't help people grow, is that it doesn't work. You start to make mistakes, mistakes get uncorrected. It hurts not only your relationships but also your business results, and so the people who are obnoxiously aggressive have an advantage. And there's a stage in the growth of every company which is a very dangerous stage. It's the stage when the assholes begin to win and all of a sudden the people who are have notxiously aggressive, they get promoted and the people who are ruinously empathetic or sometimes the manipulatively and since here people get promoted too. But that is a problem because when everyone in a when the leaders in a company are obnoxiously aggressive behave like jerks, it is natural for the people, especially the people who work for them, to respond with manipulative and sincerity. They don't dare challenge the bad behavior, so the bad behavior continues and then mistakes. Not only do mistakes get made, but relationships really sour. That's how toxic work environments develop, is the assholes on top and the rest of the company responding with manipulative and sincerity. It's really important, really important, as companies grow to learn how to challenge of noxious aggression with rat not by becoming yourself obnoxiously aggressive, but with radical candor to either of you. have an example.

If, for someone that's listening that might find themselves in an organization like that, that actually works to especially if it's upwards, if you see your boss is moving into that obnoxious aggression zone, what's one possible path? So in my experience, when someone is bullying you, and that's kind of what of noxious aggression is, it's a it's a form of bullying. The only thing that really works is some consequences for that bullying and if that person has positional authority over you, it's very hard to figure out how to create consequences. So I think a simple way to think about it is a US statement. Likes simply saying if you feel comfortable, you can't talk to me like that is actually very reassuring for that other person. Often it works surprisingly well. Or if that feels uncomfortable for you, even just asking a question what's going on for you here, but putting the onus on the other person, to just sort of putting the spotlight on the other person. I was I was talking to my daughter about this when she was getting bullied at school and I was giving her this advice like, Oh, maybe if you just tell that person how they're making you feel, and she looked at me and she was like, mom, he's trying to hurt my feelings. Why am I it's like giving him a cookie to tell him he succeeded and hurting my feelings. This is when you want to sort of say look, you can't talk to me that way. You want to create some kind of consequence for that other person. Ideally, you work in a place where there's a clear path to escalation and where there's checks and balances on power. This is one of the reasons why Google, I think, was, especially in the early days, a great place to work. Pere boss was a jerk. You could switch teams, you didn't even have to talk to your boss and and so that created some checks and balances on on bad boss behavior. There was very explicit sense there that nobody should have to pay the asshole tax. Hm. I remember a concrete example of I was working in product of and we had a leader, an executive in the organization. We're often come into meetings on prepared and then, like give an unimportant, informed decision, like a perspective on a whole bunch of stuff, and expect that everybody would just sort of listen to what they were what they were saying, and then then we would leave. We kindly referred to it as the swoop and Poop, the single manager. Yes, it single management. They fly over, they crap all over everything here, they call our or and I fly away. Exactly. And it was like this. Not only was it obnoxious, like the a lot of expertise in that room that had led to the decisions that we had and sort of ignored. Ignored that expertise that came up crosses lack of care, and so the feedback landed squarely in Anoxiaggression, but it often had a series of unintended consequences because, like, it would take a long time to clean up after that meeting, to figure out exactly like like what to do. And and I remember going into this executive's office afterwards and being like, you know, when you do this, we spend hours, days and weeks actually cleaning up from these meetings and I'm not sure if you intend for us to be spinning our wheels for days after each of these sessions, but that's what's happening. We need to find a way to get your feedback into this process that doesn't cause such a massive disruption. I didn't know it at the time. I wasn't being disrespectful, but I was using the U statement version of the feedback of like you do this, this is the effect. It's not about feelings. I didn't focus on the fact that because it was hurting people's feelings also, but it did focus on the fact that this is interrupting the work I think you're theoretically there to help with. Yeah, it causes harm. I think that's so important, is to focus on the harm that this...

...kind of behavior does, because usually when someone is in an obnoxious aggression, they really don't care that they hurt your feelings. Correct. Yeah, and I knew that they did care about the work. They did care about US getting the work done and getting it done in a timely way. I did do some internal focusing on them, but when I presented it it wasn't about my hurt feelings or the teams her feelings. It was just like no, like this is this is getting in the way the work, it's causing harm and I think after there was some recognition, we also got to have a conversation about the other type of harm that it was causing, which was the sort of like reputational or a relational harm that was causing. Because, you know, the other thing that was becoming true is like no one wanted this person's feedback. Yeah, yeah, this person, this person is getting. You know, everybody is proactively ignoring that's manipulated and since Arey, they're ignoring what that part like. Do you want to be the kind of leader who everyone tries real hard to ignore? Like not most people want to be that leader, and yet they often become that later because they think they're powerful by behaving like jerks. Yeah, so, Jason, just to go back to the swoop and Poop, how is the the initial feedback you delivered received? It's important understand that, like the power differential between me and this person was much smaller than the power differential between this person and the team, more broadly speaking. And so I think two things. One the that like I did it in private, I did it I was very clear, like I gave a very concrete example. It helps the person sort of pause. They had like an initial defensive reaction but I said, like it's your choice, like I can't tell you what to do, but all I can tell you is, like this is what's happening, it's situation, behavior impact correct and I think by saying like, like right now, I'm doing my best to advocate, I'm doing my best to help you, but ultimately it's your choice. And we left that conversation with things unresolved. Actually, like it wasn't like we had an answer or knew exactly what we're going to do. Things started to change sort of slowly and some of it was like, you know, as we dug into it a little bit, was a defensive reaction because they were like, well, you know, I kind of wish I was brought in earlier on some of these things and like I like it seems like a lot of decisions have been made by the time I'm getting a chance to do it, so I have to take a very strong stance. And there was like a back and forth that started to happen and we started to adjust the process in order to account for that. But I think without like reaching that sort of breaking point and just being super clear about how much harm does behavior is doing, I don't think we would have gotten there. So it was a process. It wasn't like a things were better overnight. I think another thing that has helped me throughout my career sort of manage bosses who are noxiously aggressive, and I haven't always done a great job. In fact, I had one boss who was such he was so belittling to me that I literally, in the course of the year that I worked for him, Shrunk Hal finite. I'm not a tall person. I think I didn't challenge enough. So first of all I want to say for anybody listening don't beat yourself up because you're not responding well to the bully. It's really hard. One of the challenges of being around someone who's very obnoxious all the time it we have instinctual reactions, like they're sort of like some people have like a fight, flight or freeze kind of reaction to that, and some people internalize that sort of abusive nature. Is like there is actually something wrong with me, like they start criticizing themselves and started internalizing that negative message. As a result, they lose their sense of agency right they lose sight of the fact that they're not terrible. In fact they're like very employable and they could go, like they could go someplace else, and even in the case where that's not an option, I think there are there's work that we can do to work on how much we're going to allow that person's obnoxiousness to affect us, to it to impact us. There's work we can do to shield ourselves from from the impact of that, because I've been in this similar situation where I had a...

...manager or leader who's like very abusive, and I remember it was like Sunday morning at nine o'clock and I was there. was like a screaming phone call about something that was happening. You know, my job was to make sure that thing didn't happen, and so it was an issue. It wasn't like he was totally wrong, but the way he was approaching me. But I realized is like you need to stop doing this, like you need to start. You can't talk to me that way, like you just can't speak to me that way. I'm going to hang up now and I'm going to go fix the problem. And it was like in that moment, that like small bit of agency right like that, taking back like the like I'm not going to accept as abuse in this moment and I'm not advocating my responsibility either, like I'm accepting that there's something useful here. It unlocks something for me. It like change something in the dynamic of that relationship. It wasn't like I'm leaving the organization tomorrow, but I started to learn how to manage myself and my most my emotional reactions in those moments a little bit better. It's also such a good use statement. You can't talk to me like that. I will not listen to you anymore if you keep talking to me that way. But I do believe that we have more agency than we think we do and realizing that another person cannot make me feel a certain way. I am the only one who has agency over my feelings. I might have a terror response in the moment, yeah, but but I can manage that respond. And I think it's important to distinguish between agency in in the moment and managing one's own emotions, versus a structural situation where you don't feel like if the culture around you is not changing and it's not supporting you and you might not feel like you're in a position to leave that job for economic reasons. Yes, said, I think it's also important to amplify what Jason said, which is that sometimes when you've been in those cultures and you do start to doubt yourself and sort of the impact of gas lighting and all of that, which I've certainly had some experiences like that and I know some of my colleagues have as well, and so part of it is surrounding yourself with people who actually focus on what you can do and sort of building yourself up and people reminding you of your strengths, because when you're only being shown the negative, it's you start to absorb that. Yes, you do, you do. I mean I think the ultimate answer this question is is Victor Frankel's and then search remaining, which which is I you can't choose what happens to you, but you can always choose your response and and that's where freedom, that's where freedom lies, even if you're in the worst of all possible situations. As as victor absolutely one of my favorite books of all time and it helped me in a low moment in my career reading that book. So one other thing I want to add in the spirit of like resisting gas lighting, something that I've that I found to be helpful is to seek guided. So if you really feel like you're up against it with somebody, this person, the way they treating me feels unappropriate, like we're all these interactions feel super stressful, it can be helpful to like take some time to find to test your experience, and not, I with the goal of undermining this person, but with the goal of seeking guidance about how better to how better to address whatever the like problem is that is that exists in your relationship. One thing that an upstander might be able to do in this situation, as if someone comes to you and says, like, I'm having this problem with this person, is not to try to deliver feedback on their behalf. But often other people are having a very similar experience. You're not alone, but that's the gas lighting part of it can make you feel like you're going crazy, like everybody else seems to be having a fine time with this and it's just me. But I have found it helpful, and this both as like a person on the receiving end of obnoxious behavior and as the obnoxious person, to have another person come to me and say, you know, I wanted to share at you of this experience that I had recently where we have this interaction and it went like this, like this, and this is this is the impact, this is the negative effect, this is the harm that it caused for me. And that second data point was so powerful for me because it was like some of it, which I had attributed, you know, to the particular relationship with this...

...other person, I started to realize like well, actually, now this is probably something behavioral and me and they didn't mention each other, but I found out after the fact that they had like talked to each other and they decided to like both come to me with this feedback and I tell this story and our workshops. It's not something I'm super embarrassed about her anything like that, but like I had a habit of have, of having an obnoxious face on while I was listening very closely to people, and it made people feel like I was angry at them all the time and it colored the way that they sort of interpreted all of the things I was saying about their work and as a result, I seemed very harsh when in fact that was not my intent. Like my face and my my mind were just like not in sync, not synchronized with one another. Can you make that? Can you make the face. Can We take a little act? I don't think I can do it on it a man demand. It's like my brow, my brow really furze thinking. Look, it's the thinking face. I think it's so I think there might be a gender version of that resting Jason Face, when I think it's called. One of the things I admire you about you, Jason, is your willingness to to really, at least from my experience, relatively quickly here, feedback, reflect, incorporate on it. I while I'm aware that their moments when you might be more thoughtful, I don't experience it as resting Bitch base. I'm delighted to say I think you've I think you took that feedback to heart, gave to facial expressions. Yeah, which is not like, not easy, not not easy at all. And I did want to touch base before we close and get into the checklist on something that I think is interesting in terms of our framework, which is about being humble. And if you are do not have the power and you're dealing with someone acting obnoxiously, humility is not your best friend here. It goes with the youth statement. So I'm curious when we talk about you know, it's a similar framework. But where does humility move into actually selfdeprecation, to actual harm for yourself? Well, I think humility is always actually a good friend, in other words, were at least for me. When I'm experiencing someone who's behaving like a jerk, I am very apt to fall prey to the fundamental attribution error and to say, well, this person is acting this way because this person is an asshole. And telling someone the problem here is you are an asshole is not really it's not helpful for them and it's probably not going to be helpful for me if that person has power over me. So I do think being aware. I think one of the bonses to obnoxious behavior when we feel powerless is to call the person names or even to shame the person. And in theory, if that other person has powers, their responsibility not to feel shamed and to interpret the feedback properly. But often they don't. And so I think being being aware when you feel powerless, that you're likely to respond to someone who's behaving ubnoxious in a way that is of noxious. As audre Lord said that the master's tools will not dismantle the master's house. So you do actually need to move we say when someone is yelling at you or or expressing seriously negative emotions. The goal there is you don't want to move off of your challenge directly, but you want to move up a little bit on care personally, and so I think taking a page out of Jason's Book and saying when you do this, it has this impact is a much better way to respond than the fundamental attribution error, which is a natural human response to being in that situation. Jason, did you have any thoughts on humility, arrogance, power and the fundamental attributioner? The thing I want to recognize it is that it's really heart let's hyper walk that we're talking about. It's like really, it's really, really hard because in a lot of cases, you know, especially when we get out of just like general behavioral obnoxiousness and...

...into sort of like biased obnoxiousness, right, like someone making judgments about you because of something that is completely out of your control. I think this like this idea of like how you respond in the moment and what you do, especially focusing on like is there a way for me to to not meet this person and a noxious aggression or like retreat from this conversation entirely. I think, you know, just reiterating him's point of if you're in that position and you're overwhelmed, like you're not going to respond well, and so retreating into manipulating sincerity for a while where you're not active, is self protective, right, like we are definitely suggesting that people put their oxygen masks on first, right, like you have to yourself correct. You need to be in a place where you feel like you can engage these things and hopefully, like with my example of like seeking guidance or getting a colleague or somebody else to approach the same issue, you can also find some ally ship or upstand or friends who can can help you navigate these things. We can't feel like you can't do it alone, but I do think like focusing on the power we have and in the moment is really important, because it can be very liberating to exercise even a small amount of power and it can change this yeah, just to just to realize your responses in your control and also to forgive yourself. It's one of the reasons why I'm reluctant to use the word courageous, because sometimes I'm going to respond badly and that doesn't our. I'm just not going to respond because I'm sick of having this conversation or this person has intimidated me in some ways, in some way and I don't want to condemn myself as being a coward. So I think self, selfforgiveness is important as you approach these conversations. So onto our radical canter checklist specific tips you can put in a practice at work and at home, and when you're working at home one of the most important things you can do is, if you have power, lay it down. If you don't have power, pick it up. Saying in the spirit of radical candor is not a get out of jail free card. If you're not caring about the person you're talking to. It's obnoxious aggression, not radical candor. Try using a you statement if you are encountering somebody who is approaching you in an obnoxious way, as opposed to focusing on your feelings, and it can be helpful to structure that in a sort of situation behavior impact type of way. When you do this, it has this effect. If you feel like someone is acting obnoxiously with you, focus on the agency that you do have in that moment and it might mean not making a response. Take care of yourself first. And finally, a word from our sponsor in God. This is an ad for the feedback loop. Thank Grahamhog Bay meets the office of Five Episode Work Plays Comedies starring David Allen. We are that brings to life radical candor simple framework for navigating candid conversations. You'll get an hour of hilarious content and remember, we learn when we laugh about a team whose feedback trails are costing them business. I just got some feedback from one of the people who took the class and he said it should really be priced at twice what it is, but we're not going to double the price. Instead, we're offering you ten percent off the self payc course. Go to radical cantercom services and enter the Promo Code feedback a checkout. That's radical cantercom services, Promo code feedback. See you next time. Thanks for joining us. Our podcast features radical candor co founders Kim Scott and Jason Roseof is produced by our director of content, Brandy Neil, and hosted by me Amy Sandler. Music is by cliff gold mocker. Be Sure to follow us on twitter at candor and find US online at radical candorcom we'll see us in.

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