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Radical Candor
Radical Candor

Episode 13 · 2 years ago

Radical Candor S2, Ep.13: Radically Candid Conversations: Kim Scott & Debora Spar Discuss the Intersection of Technology and Human Relationships

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

Our podcast series, “Radically Candid Conversations,” features experts and guests who help us learn, reflect and put our insights into action. This episode of the Radical Candor podcast features Debora Spar, a Harvard Business School professor and former Barnard College president. Kim talks to Debora about her new book Work Mate Marry Love: How Machines Shape Our Human Destiny. Kim and Debora discuss the intersections of technology and human relationships.

We continue our radically candid conversation series with Debro spark, current senior associate dean of Harvard Business School Online and former president of Bernard College. She's the author of Work Mate Mary Love. How machines shape our human destiny. Dad, welcome to the show. It's so great to have you here. It is such a pleasure to be here. So I'm going to start with a terrible thing to ask a writer, and I feel your pain when I ask you this question, but tell me about your book. I always went when somebody asked me that. I always want to answer just go read the dam book. But I would love for our readers to hear who haven't read your book to be inspired to do so. Well, thank you and I do hope that they will. They will go out and read it. But but I'll give you kind of the the overview. I mean, it's a really big book. It starts in the year eight thousand BC and goes all the way up to the present and into the future, which is kind of crazy if you think about it. But what I'm trying to do is I'm trying to sort of tell this long arc of history story about all the ways in which technology has shaped and will continue to shape our most personal and intimate lives. I'm trying to bring two worlds together, the worlds of technology and the world's of gender. So usually when people think about technology, of risk of making your generalizations here, but technology is kind of masculine and it's big and it's bulky and it's very tangible and most of the work on technology tends to be written by men, not all, but but masterday there's this other whole world of literature that's about gender and sexuality and Romance and babies and love, and that literature is overwhelmingly written by and for women. And because I've sort of lived in both of these worlds and weird ways, I wanted to bring those literatures together and make the argument, which I passionately believe is true, that if technology shapes the way we form our families and have love and have sex and fall in love, that we need to be thinking about it and does some extent, worrying about it, because we want to watch technologies arc and it's trajectory rather than just sort of waking up one morning and say, Huh, this is how we've been changed. Yes, absolutely. Let me draw an even closer tie to what all this has to do radical candor, because I a lot of our listeners ask different versions of the same question, which is, how can we show that we care personally at work? And I think that an awful lot of how we show we care personally work has to do with how we interact with each other about some of our most intimate details in our lives, like when do we bring that into work, when do we not bring that into work? How can we show we care personally about the way people are building families today when we don't even understand often how people are approaching family recently there was an article on the Wall Street Journal about IDF. And too we talk about IDF at work. Should we not talk about IVF at work? And I confess that I went right up to the edge of oversharing about IDF. My twins were born thanks to IDF, in detro fertilization, for those of you who don't know, and I was giving a talk to about five thousand of my colleagues and I announced that I was that I was going through IDF and this was a controversial decision. Some people are like, we really didn't want to know that. Kim But in fact it was a real moment to get to know a lot of my colleagues. I had a number of people come talk to me, most men and women, about their struggles to start family. So I think the more we can talk about this stuff at work the better. I think, exactly right. And look, it's a fine line and it's evolving line because when we're in work, when we're doing our jobs, you know, we're not fully immersed in our personal lives and I think maintaining that distinction is really important. By the same token, the people we are in the workplace are who we are and...

...when we're in the workplace we bring our marital squabbles at our dating problems and our children and our sleeplessns, those sort of the things that shape who we are. Yes, and I don't think you can build a team or any kind of a comfortable learning environment unless everybody's at least where of what's going on in everyone else's life. Yeah, and I think you know, in in my personal life, putting the book a side, you know, I was for a long time one of the very few women at Harvard Business Coool. I'm assuet and I was very involved in in hiring and it suddenly became clear to me that I knew for every single candidate, male or female, whether they had kids, whether they were married, whe they were planning to have kids, and they just volunteered that information and they didn't volunteer to any of my male colleagues. Right and I realized in part it was because I had my baby, my kids baby pictures all over my office. So somehow that kind of normalize the conversations like, okay, here we can talk about the family stuff, which, quite frankly, was also was often critical in terms of whether or not we'd hire this person, because I actually wanted to know, can I have a baby here? I'm day, am I going to feel awkward if I bring my same sex partner with me? And so I think just legitimizing those conversations, it not only makes for, you know, more comfortable and fun workplace, you can hire people better. Yeah, they know they're going to be welcome, yeah, and that they have you know, that they can talk about these things, even if they're out talking about it, you know, all the time. Yeah, I also want to give a shout out for all the people who decide not to have kids. I did not get married until I was almost forty and so I for for about five years assumed I would never have kids, and I think that's a decision that is is hard to make. And I also found very often that my colleagues at work were insisting on work life balance because they had all these obligations for kids, and I'm like, but they're stuff I want to do too outside of work. I always remember what if one of my actually she was a former board member of mine. She was a single woman, you know, of a certain age, and she was railing against the fact that, you know, every time somebody like a parent at work needed to go to ballet practice or soccer games or whatever, she got stuck. Yes, we all of all of the extra work, and she said how calm, it's okay for them to take time off or, you know, go home for a soccer game, but I can't take time off to go to the bar. And if I don't take time off to go to the Bar, I'm never going to be in a position to go to the soccer game. So I think you're completely right. I mean, and one of the things that I really argue for both in this book and I and my last book wonder women is that for women and for people, we need to have and to validate choice. Choice isn't just reproductive choice. Dresses. I want to get married? Do I want to have kids? Do I want to take care of my elderly parents? And as we've moved away from having sort of a one size fits all, leave it to beaver family. Yeah, we eat to validate all these different kinds of choices and choosing not to have kids is a perfectly valid choice, and so absolutely we the more different variants of families we have, the better off. I quite frankly think we all are. Yes, I totally agree that there are a lot of ways to find meaning in life and children are not certainly not the not the only one. I'm saying this conscious that nobody on my team except me has kids. So, you know, we want to make sure that we're open. One of the things, I think, one of the myths in our world is that having children will make it more difficult for you to do great work, and I think that's part of the reason why I put off having kids for so long and the fact that, and I'm glad by the way, I put it off for a long time. One of the things I often talked about is don't submit to fertility panic. If you're a young woman, don't feel and you must get it done now. But I think that one of the...

...things that I found that surprised me and shouldn't have is that I did the best work of my career after I had kids, despite all the difficulties, despite the fact that it was hard. Maybe because it was hard for me, it had a way of focusing on focusing me on what was what was important and what was not important. I was able to let go of a lot of things that previously had seemed like I had. I mean, I think there's just you know, we're learning so much so painfully and going through covid right now. Yeah, I think one of the things we're finding out, and certainly I'm seeing in my circle, which I'm sure, like yours, is mostly composed of pretty busy people, is that most of us are more productive and we have structure in our lives. Yeah, when we're faced with these twenty four hour days that we don't have to really get dressed up and you know, there's nowhere to go, I'm finding a lot of people saying that they're becoming less productive. So I think, you know, it's the way I look at at this proverbial juggling is like, yeah, it's hard. If you want to have a romantic life and a family life and kids and an exciting job, it's going to be really hard, but it's fun and you could and it's fulfilling and you just kind of have to go with it. And I remember early, early in my career, when I was like can little kids and trying to get tenure, going to one of the grand old men of Harvard and saying, so, when does it get easier? And he looked down at me with scorn and he said when you die, which was, which is really sort of grounding, because it's not supposed to be easy. And it just underscore, Kim, the point you made earlier. You and I and I'm sure most people listening to this, we have so much privilege. You know, the ones who really have a hard are the single parents with minimum wage and kids who are sick. Those of us were lucky enough to have healthy kids and support systems and well paying, exciting jobs. Yeah, it's exhausting, but you know, it's also it's also exhilarating. Yes, it just kind of embrace that. Yeah, well, I found the huge chunk of time in my career where where I was, as one friend put it, Kim you've already gotten on the Mommy track and you're not even dating anyone. So I had I had left my highpower job and I was writing a book and I was single and living alone, and that is also hard. I mean, and I remember feeling at the time sort of sad about the the state of my life and talking to a friend of mine who was married, who said marriage is also hard, like it's all hard. It's all hard, and is how do we find meeting in at and how do we support our colleagues through this, especially right now, where we're all in such the differences in our respective situations seem darker than ever, since we're all meeting with each other, sitting in each other's living rooms? Really, yes, not, and not in a common space right and that's one of the things. I'm sure you're seeing it in the workplace. We're also seeing it in higher education because when you're you know, when you're on a college or at university campus, everybody kind of looks the same, you know, the same hoodies and sweatpants or what have you eating the same food and everyone's living in the same dorm rooms. Once people are zooming in from home, you really see the differences, differences in sharp relief. And even at Harvard Business School, where, you know, we are the lead of the elite. You know, I'm watching my students. Some of them are clearly on, you know, the terraces of beach houses. Yeah, we're used and some of them are in with several other people with, I know because that it was sick relatives into any order. So, you know, we're learning a lot about covid, you know as we go through covid. But thing that worries me most, not only about covid but about all the technologies I write about in book, is that they're all going to make inequality worse. Yes, those who economy in a quality, it's going to get exacerbated by every one of the exciting technologies out there. Yes, they're going to change our sex lives and our romantic lives and our family lives put first, they're going to exascerbate into quality and that terrifies me.

So what do we do about that? Well, I think we have to look for not just community based solutions that we need governmental involvement here. Yes, I think one of the end and don't need to get overly political, but I think some of the things that Andrew Yang introduced into this election cycle, things like a universal basic income, we need to start talking about them. Yeah, you know, one of the things that's that save this country in the past few months has been the income supplements. Yeah, we need to think really hard about things like that, not just because they're sort of the right thing to do, but I think in terms of sustaining this country, if we reach a point, which I believe we will, that if driverless cars become a reality and, crucially, driverless trucks, we're going to wipe out hundreds of thousands of jobs in this country, and they're mostly going to be mail working class jobs. What do we do when all those people have no means of supporting themselves? If we want to avoid a revolution, we need to do some kind of of massive economic redistribution. It's actually not all that hard. Yeah, and there's a lot of this is not. This is sort of compassion. This is not and and common sense. This is not communism we're talking about here. It is it's about sort of creating a world at works, creating jobs for people who have talents, who we need. My brother is is a lift and over driver and this has been for him, and one of the things that was so striking to me is that he when he applied for unemployment, the systems were so impenetrable and it seemed to me like that lift an Uber would have sent instructions out to every driver about how to how to navigate the bureaucracy. Goes back and interestingly, to both what you're doing with radical candord. What I'm argue in the book is that most times we look at things like Cooper and lift as really interesting technological breakthroughs, hmm, that have had these really important economic consequences, and that's all true, but they also fundamentally changed people's lives. Yeah, for both better and worse. Yeah, and also, you look at that, at that how the technology is ultimately going to sort of travel through to people's personal and family lives, you're going to get it wrong as sort of the macroeconomic level. Yeah, I think another thing that technology does for us, especially technologies that scale, is they make it easier to measure things. And when you can measure injustice you can begin to fix it. So I'll tell you sort of an anecdote of funny story. Here's how I here's how I use technology to get married. So I was I was working at Google and I was meeting with how Verian, who is the chief economist at Google, and we were supposed to be talking about the adsense algorithm, but instead, for some reason, we got on to online dating and he said, you know, it's interesting, Kim, I can now measure that women disadvantage themselves at least ten to one and the way they date. And I was like do tell and he said, you know, women look at incoming offers and so maybe they get ten incoming offers and then they choose one of ten, but men go out and make the offers, so they're looking at at a thousand people and maybe making ten offers. And he said that's a huge advantage. And this was like, you know, this was a revelation to me because that it was exactly what I had done. And so I went to my computer the next morning was that was on a Friday. On Saturday morning I went and I searched every single profile of every single man who lived within a five mile radius of my house and I found two that looked interesting and one is my husband and and so thank you, how very am for that excellent, well dating advice. I mean, not surprisingly, he's right.

Not surprisingly as well, maybe more surprisingly, we're getting a huge amount of data now out of all that dating sites and you see these really interesting patterns. And not only do you see differences between men and women, as you've just pointed out, you also see really interesting community at patterns of the same sex world as well, where men in general are much more open to to swipe right, if you will, to pick lots and lots of people. Uh Huh. Women are less likely. But also, particularly for men, is actually harder because men who are deemed attractive, both straight and and gay men, get swiped right on a lot. Men Who are deemed unattractive actually, particularly in the gay community, get no swipes. Oh. And so we're actually seeing this and horribly, they're winding up in these sort of in cell groups. HMM. And who are deemed unattractive online have a much harder time finding romantic liaisons than they did in the pre online world, both gay and straight men, both gay and straight men. Wow, that's the after the thing it's particularly what is deemed attractive is different in the two communities. HMM. But but in some way your is this a symmetry because you're in the in the straight world? Basically, any woman who wants to find a man can find one. She may not like him, but she can find one because men are not discriminating Hurd for a man who is deemed, for whatever reasons, unattractive to find a woman online. So I was I was talking with one of my students. was lovely, smart, charming guy. He happens to be short. If you're a short man on tender, yeah, prospects are really, really bad. You know, it's so interesting this this so this is another measurement that I thought a lot. I'm I'm very short, but I'm a woman, so it hasn't really hurt me. Yeah, that's completely different. Yeah, but but I thought a lot. Well, it hasn't hurt me in some ways, it has another ways, but anyway I thought that. I looked at the statistics again and and heterosexual couples for a tall man, short woman or the mate where the man is taller, and it turns out that statistically, you would expectedly some couples to not conform to average, but it's far less so. There's something about bias that makes us want to conform to an average for no good reason, like because of this. There are a lot of lonely tall women and lonely short men. Yet, no, it's probably completely unnecessary. Yeah, no, and we kind of knew this anecdote, but we have all the data now. The other thing, one of the pieces of data that terrified being or just four fiveing more than anything else is women on tinder are most attractive at the age of Nineteen, not even like twenty five, it's nineteen, and men are most attractive at the age of fifty five. Zero. This is mine. Yeah, but this is meant its wealth and height. Yeah, yeah, height, Matt. I mean this. When I got when I got to business school, I remember there was this joke that said, you know, your success in your career is not correlated to anything except height. That was and that was I used as this joke. I'm like, that is no joke. It's like to biases, really skewing who we hire, who we promote, like and the stupid, I mean height is not the right is that? Well, and I'll tell you one other thing about right criteria. One other thing about height that I find fascinating. So I in for my last book and a little bit for this book, I spend a fair amount of time at fertility clinics talking to the doctors and the banks that that help of people conceive. And you know, one of the most established services...

...is sperm banking. So sperm banking has been around since the one thousand nine hundred and seventy. So there's tons and tons of data there. And what you see, if for sperm, is that nobody will buy sperm from a short man. Oh God, the average I make it this not entirely right, but it's pretty close to right. The average American man is five six. HMM. You cannot be a sperm donor unless you're five hundred and ten. Are you kidding? Because nobody will buy me. Is Not a law, it's just nobody will buy sperm from short men, whereas if you look at the egg market, HMM, nobody cares about the height of the woman, which in Jeanne at least, like if you're dating, you can imagine. Mean there's a physical relationship. You're buying eggs, your sperm. They have no height and it makes no difference whether you're buying short eggs or short sperm, because it's you're just getting half the chromosomes. But the prejudices come through, the biases come from some so strongly. So what you will buy a sperm from a short man. So we can measure this and we can see the stupidity of this, so will buy us like there's one there's one concern that that that bias will get worse in these hunt but maybe, maybe, because it's easier to measure, it'll get better, like it was. It was again, how varian who prompted me to change my holes, and it was just a minute of conversation that made me change my whole a lifetime of dating strategy. Well, well, yet yes, it does. So so you change the way you use the technology? Yes, guessing you didn't change your preferences. So that and that seems to a little bit more hardwired, particularly if you're looking. I don't know what service you use, obviously, but you know when you're using things like tinder and particularly, which are very visual. Yeah, people are still responding in some ways the way they would at a bar. You know, they're sizing up hair color, height, what the person's wearing, and I mean you did tell me that you found the man is now your husband in part because of the book he was for. Yes, it was matchcom and it was the novel he was reading. That right got my attention. He was reading, and this is relevant to your book, he was reading Ian McEwen. He wasn't reading machines like me, he was reading atonement. But later we did read that machines. But so talk to me a little bit about can we fall in love with with a machine? At one of the things that I'm an obsessive writer and editor and maybe I work too hard, and I remember one time I went home and a family member said to me, you love your computer more than you love me, and I realized that better. It's time for me to turn this thing off. But what do we love our machines? So I argued pretty strongly the book that I think we are definitely will fall in love with machines. I would even go so far as to argue that we already have. Now I say this is someone, as everyone in my family would have test, can barely work the remote control. So I'm not a teppy by any stretch of the imagination, but think about. You know, your smartphone, right. We all have these things, these computers, and when I when I teach about this, I always ask people to do the thought experiment. You know how many of you physically have your phone on your body right now? And it's just about everybody. Yeah, how many of you woke up this morning with your phone in your bed? How many of you you looked at your phone as the last thing you did last night? And so you see that. Is it sexual relationship? No, is it a romantic relationship? No, but is it a relationship? I think it is. You know if you know? Is that a relationship or is that an addiction? Well, think it's a continuous the thought experiment. Your phone, now bear mine. These are model teed's right, this is first generation technology. These are going to get much, much better. Yeah, my phone, I'm showing yours. It knows all of my memories. Yes, it...

...knows all of my favorite people. You knows everywhere I've been. It knows everything I'm thinking about. So if it, if it does, you know if I'd lose it. I feel bereft at some level. We all do. I mean here I always tell the start. I was having breakfast with this woman in New York. She's the high powered media executive. She's in her late S, so she didn't grow up with these things and she had left it at home that morning and she could not get through breakfast. It kept the same. But what if it needs me? And I we've all felt that way. Yeah, so that's one thing, and then take it into the the other realm. Or what are the other realms I talk about? But what people think about falling in love with robots? I think most of us think about robots sex. Right, we go to the you know, the sort of most titillating outer edges of it, and that will happen, but it less interested in that. What I find more interesting are the kinds of assist of robots that were starting to see, particularly in places like Japan, where there's too many old people and not enough young people to take so people are building robotic seals, robotic poppies and they use them in a very perfunctory way to kind of entertain folks, many of whom have to Menia in an old age home. I've gone to these places and watch the old folks interact with the robotic seal and it's real. I mean I don't know that people think the robotics see real. Is Real, but it's being helpful. But it's helpful and they're reacting with it in it in a human way. MIT is building robots that have shown incredible promise in teaching autistic kids. Wow, that the autistic kids actually do better with a robot teacher than a real teacher, because the robot is infinitely patient. Yes, it doesn't get upset, it never demonstrates frustration. It will just repeat something over and over and over again, and and so I think these are the robots that will move into our lives first. MMM, and the you know, the kind of sex with robots comes later and it's always as less interesting. Yeah, but I think we will. We get just look at what we're doing now. We are all spending all of our lives on zoom. So I think I'm talking to the Real Kidsky, but you don't know. I don't really know. If you were a really good avatar. Yeah, I might not know the difference. Yeah, that is really interesting. I think, and and I mean one of the things that I have thought a lot about since covid is the extent to which we can use technology to form real relationships at work that are as real and as deep as they need to be for work, and the extent to which we can, because we can now get eighty ninety son of the way towards in person communication using zoom or Google hangouts or whatever you want to use, Microsoft teams. I don't want to leave anybody out, but we can. We can get eighty ninety percent of the way there and then we can be in person, which where matters most with our most intimate relationships. Like it's really I talk in radical candor a lot about the importance of in person communication and I was talking about it in the work context, but one of the things that I have realized during quarantine is that it's actually fine to show up on zoom for my work time. It's not that I don't love you all, my work colleagues, but it's more it's way more important for me to show up in person for my husband and my children, way more important. Like that really it. I can't substitute and I think that it is really interesting. I we started off talking about the...

...productivity hip of this period and I have taken a productivity hit, to be sure, probably on the order of thirty percent but also have gotten a parenting, an espousal game on the order of sixty percent, and that's a good tradeoff actually. Like maybe I need to let go of some of that desire for productivity and accept the much bigger and more important gain I'm getting in my personal life. Yeah, no, I think that's true, and I also think that your productivity loss is probably less than you think it is, because we're also, you know, we're not commuting. Yeah, we're taking less time to get dressed in the morning. You know, we're remember took much time to get dressed and all right, well, I was taking a little bit more. I got let's to work with. Tired of being talked at during prerecorded webinars? Come laugh with us live, join us for a laugh and learn program to acquire the skills you need to practice radical candor like a boss, even if you aren't one and even if you haven't read the book. For the first time, Kim Scott's teaching a live six week virtual course featuring our comedy based Interactive Learning Program, the feedback loop, to help you fix past and present feedback fails and avoid future frustrations. So don't miss this opportunity to practice the principles of radical candor in real time with real people. Course, starts October. Fourteen visit radical candorcom backslash feedback. That's radical candorcom backslash feedback. One of the things I've been talking about since the book came out is in some odd ways our lives are almost going back to the pre industrial era where everybody worked at home and the division of Labor was more fluid. Yes, that there wasn't sort of one person to stayed at the home and went off to the factory job. We're almost going back to that preindustrial phase and like everything else, that'll have good attributes and and bad but I think what we're going to find, not just in your family or your workplace, for seeing in Higher Ed, is this sort of calculus of what parts have to be done in person. Yeah, and what we're seeing on college campus is your early stages is you know, kids don't want to give up eating in the dining hall. Yeah, I didn't want to give up plays Frisbee on the lawn. The education, we may actually be able to do more right. Yeah, but it's really interesting. I mean that offers opportunity for more equality, because you could offer the educational parts to a lot more people. You could educate. Harvard could educate ten times, a hundred times the number of people that they used to be able to educate if they gave up on the idea of if they said, okay, people who are at Harvard, who are in Memphis or in Mumbai, can get together and go play Frisbee and going together. That's what we're doing. So one of my hats and the senior social dealing of Harvard Business School Online. I've only been in that role for a while so I can't take credit for the work they've done, but you know, we're teaching tens of thousands of people online. Yeah, what we've discovered pre covid is once a year we invite people to come to campus and everybody comes. You know, they form relationships and they want to be on campus, they want to walk along the brick paths and, you know, play the Frisbee. But but we aren't using at the economic term, we're sort of disintermediating the bundle. Yeah, so we used to be. I mean the model of college we have, which again is sort of a medieval moll model. If you get it all at once, you get the camp this and the meal halls and the education. Now it is forcing us to imagine unbundling that. Yeah, as a really interesting yeah, it's so. It's so interesting that some colleagues of mine from Google who taught and a an artificial intelligence class at Stanford, opened that class up to anyone who wanted to take it. So there were I think four hundred Stamford students taking their class and then they opened it up and they thought, you...

...know, maybe tenzero people would take it. I think something like a hundred thousand people took there was a huge number of people and it turned out that the number one person at Stanford was like not even close to the top of performers in the class, that there were these people who are not in these elite universities who were performing very well. So again, that was Sebastian throne and this experience prompted him to start a company udacity. So I think the opportunity for equality and equality of opportunity and education and also equality of opportunity at work is there. We hadn't figured out right now it's making an equality greater, but I think the opportunity for equality and for measuring bias and for measuring these these problems that are in that are so baked into our current systems. Is is really exciting about how machines shape our human destiny. But I know I of course agree with that, but I would sort take it one step further to say I think that's kind of the argument. If you can sort of imagine or sketch out sort of the trajectory of these technologies. HMM, you say, Huh, it can make things more equal or less equal. Yes, so how do we jump in ahead of that curve and make it more rather than just rebundling and pushing the price point up again? Now, can we create, you know, Stanford on campus, Stanford Online, Stanford for everybody? But you have to think about that up front. Otherwise you know it's not necessarily going to go in the direction you want to. Yes, yeah, but you can imagine it driving the cost of education way down and in ways that were impossible to conceive just now. He's absolutely absolute and I think, you know, people have been sort of imagining that actually, even since the days of radio. Universities were predicted to go away because radio, you know, would just deliver educate on air. That didn't happen, now. But now covid is really forcing this because we are figuring out it's not easy, but you can deliver a really, really good quality education. Not all the pieces of it, yeah, some pieces you can deliver really well online. Yeah, yeah, absolutely, absolutely. So what else have you learned about teaching online, about about the experience of building community and and reaching out at an emotional level to all these students, but also reaching out intellectually? Well, I think one of the things, and this is really not directly connected to Covid at all, is that you can't do things well online simply by porting whatever it was you did in the classroom, you know, filming it and plunking it down online. It's a completely different skill set. I was just thinking about the other day and came you had mentioned this to me that you know, in the early days of movies, you know, they didn't really know how to make a movie, so they just filmed a play. Yes, turns out that filming a play does not make a good movie. I think we're in the same sort of stages now and thinking about online education that, you know, the early mooks were just filming a single professor and, you know, and after people got sort of over the you know, thrill issue there. It's just not that good. So you have to you have to think about the pedagogy completely differently. HMM. You know, it's like making them move from a textbook to a movie. It's a completely different shift and it cost a lot of money to do that. Yes, so, and this goes back to your quality. You know, not every university, in fact very few universities, will be able to go online successfully. So we'll get this winnowing out. The ones you do it well will be few in number and they'll have to spend lots of money upfront and then hopefully they'll have the power to actually disseminate this education, education much more broadly. Yeah, it's so interesting. So when I used to give these radical camera talks, I always sort of wondered because, and I stand...

...up to give a talk, this is a true confession, I give the same exact talk every time. It's almost like I'm pushing play in my brain and so and it feels there's something about that that feels wrong to me. So I was talking to John Maid who was the head of the Rhode Island School of design. I said, well, let's do this experiment let's just take a recording of you giving talk and let's play the recording on to an online audience and then let's hit pause every so let's look at the questions that come up and hit pause every so often, and so it'll be almost like you're a sportscaster talking about your own talk and that seems like really interesting and we try and it didn't really work that well. You know why? Well, I think part of it. And then this is what goes back to you. What can you do online? What do you have to do for real? They're there's still a human energy and a human connection that seeing that person in the front of the room, watching them move, watching them sweat, is real and the same as you. My last book I gave the same speech, you know, a million and a half times, but when differently every time, because because the audience was audience, there's an energy coming or not coming, and that's the part that's exciting. So so, whether you're thinking about this from education perspective or workplace perspective, it goes back the same question. What are the things that you can do virtually, you know, basic tasks of practice teaching peoples, like excel spreadsheets, those are great to do online, but what are the things you have to do in person? And I hope we don't reach a point where the excitement of having a real human being interacting with other real human beings goes away. I don't think it now. Now, I mean what can be delivered asynchronously and what has to be synchronous. I think it's another but I mean, and to me, the great lectures that I saw in college, and I was really lucky that. I mean I had some amazing professors and but they could have been delivered over video. I really do like. In fact, one of the one of the lectures that most impacted my life was from the Great Lecture Series on her and I bought it was like it was a cassette tape actually that long ago, and I listened to it while I was on a stairmaster and it was it was a psychology lecture and it was a it was about skinner's box and it like freed me in a way that very few things have ever. So I think there is an opportunity to have a library of great lectures and then build community around those lectures and conversation. I mean, in a sense that's what happened in college. Right, you go to the n then you go to the precept. Right. Well, pre covid when I was back at at barnered, we built a new educational building and what we built it? And lots of people are doing these. So these so called slipped classrooms. HMM. Yea. The basic pedagogical idea of the slip classroom is that the students listen to the lectures ahead of class, particularly the sciences, and then they come into class and work through problems in small groups and they do bench experiments and so you know, it makes no sense, or makes little sense, to sit in a class and listen to a lecture. That's the part you can do at home on the stairmaster. Yeah, but you know you can't do a chemistry experiment on the NOWER Maaster, at least not yet. Yeah, that's the part that you want to be be happening in person. Yeah, and you can't have a conversation about skinner's box now. You know, while you're on the stair you got to sit and look at people and talk, and that has to be that has to be synchronous. You know, it's interesting. I first met Jason When Candor Inc the first company I had started failed. So the the initial idea that I had after I wrote the book radical candor was we can build an APP that will help people change their behavior and develop a habit of radical canter, because I think part of what's hard about radical candor is that we're trained from a young age if you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything at all. And at a certain point I realized if the purpose of radical candor is to...

...teach people to put their phones in their pocket and look each other in the eye, even if it's oversumed, and have a real conversation, then an APP was a value subtracting round trip. So that was an example of a machine that didn't work. And one of the things I think the the team Jason and Brandy and amy and I have been wrestling with is how can we, in addition to the talks of workshops, like, how can we begin to use technology to help people change their behavior? One of the most interesting conversations I had was with Angela Duckworth, who wrote grip. She said, you know, you need emotion and that is possible to deliver. I mean that's what movies deliver and that's what books deliver and that's also what in person conversations. But you need some sort of emotional hook in. You need a framework that's very simple and then you need people to tie that into their real lives and then to change something that, to do something with this information and to do it on a regular basis, and it's at the information can be conveyed asynchronously doing something. Yeah, the testing ideas. Yeah, that's really hard to do, at least given our current technologies. Yes, yes, absolutely so. Can we go back to can we go back to IDF here or the end? So one of the things that I found that almost knocked me off course and my career several times when I was younger was this sort of abstract what I call fertility panic. There are so many messages that come at people saying you must have children before your I don't know what thirty two, I don't know what the number. It's way lower than is necessary. And the truth is, now that I'm an Old Lady of fifty two, I I don't know anyone who really wanted kids who didn't ultimately figure out a way to have children in their life. But I know so many people who panicked and married the wrong person and had children with somebody who they didn't necessarily want to be tied to for the rest of their lives because this fertility panic message. So this was something and I know people who who got off track in their careers because of fertility panic. So talk to me about for Tilly. So I have a slightly different perspective on that. Okay, my public service announcement that I'd make regularly. Mother Nature is not fair. Yeah, the women's fertility does fall off a cliff at thirty five, and that's not a political statement, that's just a biological statements. Or Mother Nature, God or whoever you like, really wanted women to produce babies between like nineteen and twenty three. That's when we're most fertile. Now. That definitely doesn't mean that you can't have children later. Definitely doesn't mean the children the right things for everybody, but I always feel like that. I just want with young women to know that that's just what the science tells us. And and again it ties back to inequality. So there are some women who can be fertile into their S. most can't, but there's some who can. It's very hard to predict ahead of time. And then if you're if you're not one of those lucky few and you want to have babies in your late s and s ivf as a God said. But it's expensive. Yes, and so I just feel get like the public service announcement is your you know, your biologically supposed to do it. Now. However, it goes back to what I said earlier. For me, the most important things choices. So for some women, having babies early is the right thing to do, and I have my first kid really young, and I mean we all rationalize everything, you know. For me that worked out beautiful. My kids are all grown and now I have hopefully a lot of years of productivity sort of towards the ladder part of my career. I don't think there's one way to do it. Yeah, you know, I think there's, admit there's a whole buffet...

...of ways that people can do it and we need to validate all of those make sure people have the facts. Yeah, and this isn't my you know, my other sort of pitch IDF should be part of healthcare. I mean, first of all, we should have more and better healthcare in this country. Yes, yeah, but but IDF, up until you know your mid S. it's just healthcare. And if you could, if you could just make it easier for people to afford, to be able to concede later in life, then I think you would take away some of that panic. So anything we do can keep get rid of the panic is definitely the panic is never is never helpful. I mean of course, of course, you know, we've got people who don't have healthcare at all and we've got people whose healthcare won't cover a cat scan when they really need it. So, even as a beneficiary of IVF, yes, it should be. I just think that for me at least, I have had a lot of issues to work out. That was important for me to work out those issues before I had children and then dumped them on the kids and that was that was way more important than having kids, you know, at twenty two. Yeah, but I think again, that goes to the point. There's, you know, there's no one cookie cutter here. Yeah, yeah, and and so much of it is just the luck. You know, when you meet the right person, if you want to parent with another person, you know. So sometimes I also hear from women on the flip side. It's from them sometimes to which is, I think, I've met the love of my life, but I'm so young, you know, shouldn't I go out and wait? And my advice generally feels right, go for it. So I got anything that pushes individuals. We all have our wards in our troubles and whatever we have to work through. Anything that pushes individuals to believe there's one single way to do this family thing. Yeah, completely. Yes. Yes, I agree that it goes back to this average thing. Just because, on average, and I had our sexual couple, the man is taller than a woman doesn't mean that there need to be a lot of unnecessarily lonely you know. It doesn't mean you can't defy the average. It's yet it's kind of a silly thing, right. Yeah. Well, Dad, such a fun conversation. Thank you so much. I could find call that. You so much and make sure you buy work. Mate, Mary love how machine shape our destiny. Thanks for joining us. Our podcast features radical candor cofounders Kim Scott and Jason Rosof is produced by our director of content, Brandy Neil, and hosted by me Amy Sandler. Music is by cliff gold mocker. Be Sure to follow us on twitter at candor and find us online at radical candorcom. WE'LL SEE US SOON.

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