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Radical Candor
Radical Candor

Episode 1 · 10 months ago

Radical Candor S4, Ep. 1: Rock Star Mode Versus Superstar Mode

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

Building a team is hard. But as we’re seeing now during the Great Resignation, failure to spend time building and investing in a team can have disastrous consequences. In order to be successful, this means developing people on both steep and gradual growth trajectories, or as we like to say at Radical Candor, people in both rockstar mode and superstar mode. On this episode of the Radical Candor podcast, Kim, Jason and Amy discuss how to balance growth and stability by developing people who are in both superstar and rock star modes.

Hello everybody, welcome to the radical candor podcast. I'm Kim Scott, co founder of radical candor and just work. I'm Jason Rose Off Seeo and Co founder radical candor, and I'm any say on there, your host for the radical candor podcast. Welcome to season four. Want to give some extra welcomes Kim Jason as we kick this off. Welcome, welcome, welcolcome, welcome, welcome, Sam, four times, welcome, welcome, welcome, welcome, season four. Oh Yes, thank you, I didn't even think of that. You're just we're already learning so much. But today we're going to talk about how, in order to build and sustain a great team, you need to understand how each person's job actually fits into their life goals. You can get to know each person who reports directly to you and have a real human relationship with them, because building a team is hard, but, as we're seeing now during the great resignation, if you fail to spend time building and investing a team, it can have disastrous consequences. According to research from Gallop, one of the most disruption proof, time tested human needs is for development. People Demand Growth and development, and so in order to be successful, this means developing people who are on both steep and gradual growth trajectories or, as we like to say, a radical candor people who are in either rock star mode or superstar mode. Cam Can you explain the difference between Rockstar mode and superstar mode and why it's so important to recognize and develop people in each mode equally? Sure? Absolutely. This is something I got wrong for a lot of my career. I thought everyone on a team on to be in superstar mode. So what is the difference, first of all, between superstar and rock star mode? This is when I was at apple I was working with a leader who said, you know, you really need to manage your rocks, people who are in Rockstar mode differently from people who are in superstar mode, and I was like, what the Hell is she talking about? What's a difference between the two? And she explained to me that people who are in superstar mode are the people who are growing really fast. They want the next big job. They don't just want your job, their boss's job, they want their bosses bosses job. They're on the super steep boat trajectory. But people who are in Rockstar mode are like your rock of Gibraltar. These are the people who are great at their job but they don't necessarily want the next big job. And there's a variety of reasons why folks are in Rockstar mode a different parts in their career and if you think about it, people when they're in in superstar mode, those are the sources of growth on your team. But people when they are in Rockstar mode, that's a source of stability on your team and you need both if you don't want the wheels to come off the proverbial bus. You need a certain number of people who are in Rockstar mode. Different managers handle this differently. There are also managers who tend to clip the wings of people when they're in superstar mode and not allow them to grow and they and the way they want to grow, and that hurts those individuals, but it also hurts the whole team chasing. When you hear Kim talk about rock star mode and superstar mode, how do you, sorry, I can help but say that superstar mode stop. How do you actually figure out who is in what mode, especially now you know because it might be changing quite rapidly for folks? This is a good question. I feel like there's a subset of the world of analyzing work right now that's trying to just sort of figure out like what is happening, what is happening to people in the context of global pandemic, etc. And I thought...

...you and Kim had a great sort of side discussion about this, which is essentially that, given all that we're needing to learn to do collectively to adapt to living through the pandemically, we're all sort of in superstar mode because we're our jobs are changing quickly, we're developing new skills rapidly, and I would say, like I think that's obvious for people who have gone from in person to remote work, but it's also true, you know, for people who work in a grocery store have to figure out in entirely new ways to clean things. They had to like figure out that they have new systems for screening people and all the stuff that just didn't exist before. So I think it is a little confusing right now. Like it or not, ready or not, here we come here, you know, we're none of us signed up to be in superstar mode around the pandemic, but here we find ourselves. It's exhausting. It is exhausting and it is exposed. Its exposed I think the great like the reason for the great resignation is it exposed the people were close to our at a limit that they had for their desire or energy to continue sort of like learn, grow and develop in their current role. You know, for lots of reasons right. Maybe they like wasn't just in just particularly interesting from a career perspective, or maybe, you know, they weren't being treated that great but given the responsibilities of the job, they sort of felt like it was OK, they was manageable and all of a sudden it's not manageable anymore. So it is a heart so confusing time to try to figure this out. But I do generally think that they're sort of like looking at your ambition for growth at work. Is a way to narrow that down a little bit, right, because there's a difference between saying, look, I really hate this covid stuff, but I get that we have to learn it. At the same time. That kind of stinks, but I'm excited about growing new skills quickly, like I'm I feel like I'm sort of like sort of stock where I am now, and I what I really want to do is I want to grow, like maybe maybe it's promotion, or maybe I just want to become more expert at what I'm doing now and I feel like I need bigger and Harrier challenges in order to do that. So like looking for it. What is your ambition at work? I think can help you narrow things down and for me, that, I think, is a fairly good indicator. Like there's fluctuations in that over time, and I would say like it doesn't even have to be a particular long time for someone to go go from saying like Hey, you know, I'm super ambitious, like I want to take maybe I want to take classes outside of work, I want to mentor somebody at work, I want to take on some new responsibility. Those are all signs to me that someone is is in superstar mode right, that they're looking for reaching for something new and in Rockstar mode. I think there's like the signs that I'm looking for our people who are doing excellent work and they're very happy doing that excellent like continuing to do that excellent work. They feel very satisfied with the challenges that they have, but not complacent right, like there's a big difference between rockstar mode and and coasting. I think that is sort of especially tricky to understand right now. In the best way that you can assess it is like, is this person still contributing at a high level given their role? Yeah, it's really interesting this research from Gallop about how to win the great resignation and we'll put that in the show notes. But they do list some data from a June two thousand and twenty one survey with Amazon that Gallop found that fifty seven percent of US workers want to update their skills and forty eight percent would consider switching jobs. Now it's interesting to think from June two thousand and twenty one to January two thousand and twenty two, which is where we are. Has that changed? You know, because things are changing. We aren't where we may have thought we would be in June two thousand and twenty one. But I think that validates, Jason, what you're saying of this idea of I want to keep learning new skills. How can I what's considered upskilling, etcetera. Can when you hear that data point about people wanting to update their skills, where does that land for you? I think the people do, in general want to grow. I've never well, I've met very few people who want everything to say exactly the same all the time. Furthermore, we're in the business of helping people...

...grow and learn new skills. So music to my years touching. But in all seriousness, I think that it is very important that people are growing in the way they want to grow and that they're not being pushed past their limits. I also think it's important to understand the reasons why people want to grow. Do people want to do the things that you do and that next big role, or do they simply want to earn more money? There's nothing wrong with wanting to earn more money, but if you don't want to do the things that you have to do and that next job that pays more money, then you're not going to succeed in that job and you wind up getting fired often and getting less money. So you want to make sure when you're thinking about yourself, for when you're a leader, thinking about understanding what's going on for other people, that you're understanding why they want to grow and the way they want to grow. Well, I will say to add a little bit more from that research piece in terms of the work that we do. Just to quote table stakes. They were talking about how managers need to be less like bosses and more like coaches, which is really our framework. And they say that Table Stakes for the modern coaching manager include things like asking great questions, listening to individualize, using employee strengths to drive engagement and produce measurable Business Outcomes. and I wonder, Jason, when you think about asking great questions, what are some of the questions that you would ask a team member to really try to understand? Where are they in this desire to upscale? Actually what they're calling here reskill as well, and how do you think about what can you as an organization offer? And what if somebody can't offer those development opportunities? How do you think about that as a manager? What questions do you ask? This is sort of interesting because I think people are quite open to influence when it comes to being in Rockstar, motor superstar mode, and so I'd be really thoughtful about how I like. I want to know this information, but I don't necessarily want to directly ask someone because I'd worry that in my in directly asking someone, that I might push them on intentionally toward one or the other when that's not really what they want. And so what I'm looking for is, instead of a specific question that I'm asking, what I'm looking for our patterns. And so one pattern that I'm looking for is, like how often does this person bring up something new or slightly different or outside of their role when they talk to me right it? Are they coming in saying, Hey, I read this really interesting article about this thing that might be, like maybe it's going to be interesting for radical candor like I don't know, like, or I decide I signed up for a course because I will. There's a skill that I'm interested in and I will. I just wanted you to know that. I like, I'm going out there to learn this thing. Or I noticed that there was something we weren't doing over here and I spent a couple hours last week and I went in there and I fixed it. Like I did it, I changed it so it's better now. Those are the kinds of things that I like. That that's someone tipping their hands, saying, like, I'm actually eager to try some new things, like I'm interested, and at that point I might ask, I mean, that's great, Hey, they are you interested in more opportunities like that? I think we could be very intentional about giving you opportunities to grow in that way. And the reason why it is more to protect rock people in Rockstar mode than actual superstars, because people and rock star mode look around and they often wind up at the same come to the same conclusion as Kim which is like everybody should be in superstar mode because that's the way that you succeed. The risk that I've seen is you have a bunch of people who are really in rock star art are great and actually quite happy with what they're doing, saying I want all these development opportunities. And there's a concrete example this. I was working with a couple of companies ago where someone was coming to me as like I want to grow and I want to chant, like I want a big step up my career and I want like these big new opportunities, and so we like went out of our way to like craft an opportunity for them, and they were so stressed out there, like I can't do this is like incredibly stressful for me, like I want to go back to the way things were, and I was like how did we wind up?...

Because I think they were telling me the truth. At the moment, they believed that that's what they wanted but I wasn't curious enough, like I didn't push them hard enough to, say, answer Kim's questions, like do you really want to do the things that are required of you, liked, have you really thought about what that was like, especially if you work in a high growth environment where there's a lot of people who are moving onto new roles and things like that? Like have a bias for defending the Rock Stars, for not allowing them to get swept up in superstar and people in superstar mode sort of week, and I think you're exactly right, Jason. The word bias is really important here. I think that very often we do tend subconsciously to think that people should be like us. So when I was in superstar mode, that's why I thought everybody should be in superstar mode. Right. And there was a guy, I think a me to your question of what questions do you ask? Part of it is just listening to what people tell you and respecting and honoring what people tell you. So there was a guy who worked for me and he was a customer service REP at a start up and he was great. He was fantastic. People sent him donuts, like you forget about net promoter score. When your customers are sending you donuts, you know something's going well. So as the company grew, thanks him part to his work, we needed to hire more customer service reps and I asked him if he wanted to lead the team and he said no, I don't want to lead the team. I am an actor and what I really want to do is leave every day at thirty so that I can go be on these off and these off Broadway productions. This was in New York. To my shame, I did not honor him for that. I kind of thought less of him and I hired someone to be his manager who really didn't want that job. But that person really wanted was to be the CEO of the company and he was incredibly arrogant and sort of looked down on this guy who was great at what he did, and the guy while up quitting and it hurt the company. So that was one of many management mistakes I made it that company and I just feel really bad about it. I can't believe that I was so arrogant, and yet I also I think I didn't fully understand how arrogant it was until I found myself in Rockstar mode at a different phase in my career. So tell us about that. How did Kim Scott Find Herself in rock star mode? So I was pregnant with twins and I was working at Google and I think, I mean maybe it's arrogant to say, Oh, I think I was doing a good job anyway, but I had been doing that job for several years at this point. I wasn't necessarily gunning for the next job because I was pregnant with twins. It was a high risk pregnancy. But someone came along to me and said, do you want to throw your hat in the ring to be the CEO of twitter? And that was the kind of opportunity earlier in my life I would have really done just about anything to get. So I thought about it and I called my doctor and I said, well, what do you think, and she said, well, do you have to travel for that? Oh Yeah, you know, can you lie down on the couch for two hours every day? Oh No, and she said, well, what's more important to you? The hearts and lungs of your children or this opportunity? And so it's like okay, well, I guess I'm not going to throw my hat in the ring and I want to pause here. Just because you're pregnant with twins does not mean you can't be the CEO of twitter. But I personally, everything is individual. I could not. In fact, I gave a talk and I showed a picture of myself at this point, and you'll see, if you see that picture, why I could not. You can tell why I couldn't. Anyway, I was not in good shape. So I didn't throw my hat in the ring and I felt at first I felt a sense of almost like failure and shame, and then I had to realize, you know what, I have got a great job. I'm producing to human beings. That's also a great job and it's going to be. It's good.

It's okay for me not to take this next big opportunity, but it really took some soul searching for me to get there. But I'm glad I did. Yeah, well, and thank goodness, I guess. As I hear your story, it just makes me think, as folks are listening, dealing with these, like you said, soul searching, these difficult decisions, and so Jason is, as you here can story. I'm curious if you reflect on how people right now here maybe having to make some of these tough choices, like I've got a care for, you know, a parent or a child or a spouse, or you know myself. I've whether it's health issues, whether it's financial concerns, and yet this thing is pulling me at work and I just it feels like something we should drill down into a little bit because I think that story can share, people can really resonate with that. Yeah, I think there's a good moment to say that the impact that pandemic has had on working habits has is gendered, like there's a bigger impact on the changes to what women are doing then there is to what men are doing in the pandemic, and that's inparming my household, where and has stepped up and in aggregate maybe more than on average, and aggregate like women are working even less than men are working less, if that, if that makes sense, like in the resignation, like women are changing their roles even more than men are changing their roles. Women have taken on more care responsibility outside of work than men have as a result of the pandemic and causing all kinds of disruption to child care and increasing the need for elder care, to care for people are ill. So like there's some sort of like social expectation, social expectations here that I think are important to account for because, for my perspective, there's like a big missed opportunity here for, you know, fractional roles, partial work, other for people to be flexible, because we worked with a client not that long ago. One of the our primary context was in this very interesting situation where they had two people who sat in a single roll. They split up the week. Essentially they performed this role as well or better than an individual could perform it, but it was two people operating on sort of a parttime basis and they had to come up with lots of ways to manage that. Like they had to have a handoff when one person was going off and the other person was coming on. They had a single email address that either of them could respond to, so it was like there was no separation. Is all very strange, except that it allowed them to do these other things in their life that they really cared about. Now, from my perspective, they were not actually in Rockstar mode. They are in superstar where they're super ambitious at work and they were collectively growing and changing the the reason why I think the story is so helpful is like I had never in twenty plus years of working, run into that another time, not one other time in twenty some odd years. And what was fascinating to me is, like it's so clear that there are creative ways that we can give people opportunity, even if they do need to care for kids part of the week. Right, like, even if that's part of the blueprint, it's possible to craft rolls and jobs that allow people to continue to be ambitious. So I guess like part of me is like I don't want to throw out the possibility that just because someone has extra responsibility outside of work that that means that, you know, to Kim's point, their default in Rockstar mode. Right, maybe they're still in superstar mode, but the world is not in a state that makes it easier for them to actually succeed in being a superstar that they want to be. Yeah, and I also will say, for example, I had a friend who is a single mom. Have a friend who's a single mom and she told her boss, when she told him that she was pregnant, she said, I need the next big job, like I don't...

...imagine that I am taking my foot off the accelerator because I am having this child, I need money more now than ever, and also my feeling is that in the early years I can, I can hire a nanny Moore, and by the time this kid is twelve, then maybe I'll want to step back and be there for the teen years. So, which is a legitimate parenting choice. And her boss did not listen to her and didn't give her the next big role and she left that job and took another, much bigger role that had her flying to China all the time. And her boss, when she told him she was going to take this, he was stunned and she said, but I told you, I told you that's what I wanted and you didn't listen. It's the same thing as I didn't listen to this guy who told me that he wanted. There are all different reasons why one might want to be in Rockstar mode firstar mode, and I guess I think resuper starm it. Yeah, it's just tempting to say to see someone's situation as the only, as the only or even primary factor of like what mode they can, are should be in. But I think like part of the problem is the inflexibility of the way that we define were like the way that we define that, we are leaving a lot of really great things on the table, because even someone there's this sort of mythology about developers, which is like a great developer, like a truly great developer, is worth ten, you know, average developer, like software developers. I hate that. So disagree with that, but I know you feel the same way. I also I also disagree, disagree with that, but I do think that there are some people who are twice as productive as the average person. Like in the same room, like I observe someone who's twice as productive, which means that if that person comes to you and says, I have this other ambition that I want to be, you know, I'm on to do something else with my time, I want to be a botanist, and you're like, well, most companies are going to say sorry, like you can't work halftime, but if you're like that's the thing that's missing for me in terms of why this has been so stressful, this transition to a world in which people have one opened up to the possibility that maybe there's more that they want to do than the role that's immediately in front of them and maybe that's not with that current company. Into that there are all these other responsibilities of people have taken on. It's like people have been treating as immutable, like the way that we structure Rolls, and so, as a result, for loose all of this really great potential and saying, well, you know, sorry, you know, we need a someone in Rockstar mode here who's going to be here five days a week, even though that that person might be, you know, seventy five percent as productive as the person who's that saying, you know, I'd like to work a four day week because I have this other thing I want to do. Yeah, and I think he raised a really important point. I think there's a bias to think that it is the people who are in Rockstar mode who need more flexibility, but more often than not it's the people in superstar. But there was a there was a person who worked for me who was one of the most productive people I've ever worked with in my life, who was just incredible, but he needed sounds ridiculout, but it was like, in order for him to function ten months a year at that level, he needed two months a year to like go on a bender and take pictures, and they would get drunk and take a lot of photos and the company where I worked did not make allow drunk drunk photos. About no two month a year go get drunk and take photos. So I had to really it was one of the hardest management challenges I ever had to help navigate the bureaucracy and I treated it like a kind of a kind of parental leave. But so I think there's there's also so there's a couple of more things to say about parental leave. One is that I was just talking to...

...a CEEO earlier today who said, you know, I am single and somehow that means I have to do all the work, because it's not legitimate for me to say I need to go on a date, but it is legitimate for you to say, you know, I've got to take care of my kids and so I can't do this. She said, I'll never have kids if I can't go on a few dates. Now. So I think we need flexibility. People who are not parents also need to flex and it's flexibility. Children are not the only thing that take a lot of time in this world. And also, I just want to shout out for all the parents who are not you know, had our own normative parents. There's a lot of parents who have a lot of kids, who have two MOMS or two dads or two parents who are not binary, and we want to make sure that we're not assuming. And also men have children too, but straight men have children to like we want to make sure that, even though you're right, Jason, on average women do tend to pick up more of that child rearing, I think we draw way too many conclusions from that fat so I just want to put a pin in that one. To bring it back to even the words rock star and superstar mode. Cam I know how important words are to you and I think it's just important. If we haven't said it explicitly, why are we talking about mode rather than, Oh, you're a rock star, you're a superstar, because we want to make sure that we're leaving room for people to change at different points and in everyone's career there in different modes. There are times and it's usually when you're when you're starting a new job, you're coming up a steep learning curve and so you're in superstar mode almost by definition, whereas when you've when you've been in a job for a while and you're not going up, such as steep learning curve. You're usually more in rockstar mode and you don't want to label people. You don't want to put them in a box and leave them there. People Change and if you're gonna be a good manager and make sure you're putting the right people in the right roles, you want to make sure that you're that you're changing with people and helping change people's roles as their desires and circumstances change. The other thing I want to bring in when it comes to words is this idea of potential versus growth. I know one of the kind of origin stories was you were using this performance potential matrix that mckinzie it originally developed, and the word potential rubbed you the wrong way. Yeah, and it's worth noting that that Matrix was meant originally it was developed for investments, not for people. When I was at this company that used to that I wasn't going to put anyone in the low potential bucket. I don't think there's any such thing as a low potential human being. So I think it's just the wrong way to look at it. It labels people. Then all of a sudden people would be called you know they're a low potential and like that is a like horrible, horrible thing. So I was speaking with a leader at that company and I said, you know, this really bothers me, and it was one of the happiest moments of my career. He's like, yes, words matter, let's say words and we started talking about growth and the importance of growth and making sure that we were giving people the right growth opportunities, not pushing them too hard and not not pushing and not pushing them hard enough. We need to be aware of of how how people want to grow. Also really important that managers figure out, you know, what percentage of my team needs to be in superstar mode, what percentage needs to be in rocks, and varies from situation to situation. How do you think about how to make that estimate? Like had? What are some of the metrics by which you determine? Oh, we need we actually need some more stability, we need some...

...more folks and rock star mode here. I mean if you're managing a nuclear power plant, I hope that you have a lot of people in rockstar mode who feel a great deal of satisfaction out of keeping things safe. That is really important. So that's an example. I mean, I'm you also need some people who are in good it's like hard to learn that stuff. But you don't want to have too many people who are distracted by learning them x new thing. You want them very focused on the current job. Think, man, I've never managed a nuclear power plant, so I'm really meging stuff up, but you haven't managed a diamond cut actory. If you can factory, yes, and and actually there's an example about that in the book. There was my the by boss at that company said that he really wanted to understand what the people who are cutting the diamonds were doing. Cutting a diamond is very much you want someone in rock star mode. You don't want to give you don't want people coming up the learning curve on these very expensive pieces of rock. And he was a curtly rock star most yes, yes, literally rock star mode. He blew up a very large and expensive diamond when he was right and he realized, you know, this was not the right kind of job for him. He needed he was more of the deal maker than he was the rock. So this is kind of Jason's you know, what do you think you're good at, and then actually putting it into practice. Boom, maybe, yeah, he's should it cutting diamonds actually after all? Yeah, can I I like the the sort of like what is people this desire to grow? What have they demonstrated, you know, had how have they demonstrated their ability to sort of like grow into that new thing? And what is your need, if those are the stringer pulling as a manager, like the question of why? Why do I need to know exactly what a diamond cutter is doing, like, can't? Can I be satisfied? And why? Is the way that I need to figure that by doing it myself? As a good question, because it's like, well, how does that help you answer any of those other questions that you're deact answer? It's not. It's not clear to me that that it does. Part of the relationship that I could imagine is that you're trying to figure put like you, you go through a phase where you're trying to figure out, well, I'm managing, let's say, you know, I'm managing and engineers of some kind, not computer engineers, but let's say they're mechanical engineers at a nuclear power plant, and so marking around in that plant. Please right. You know your background is is an electrical engineering. You know, have a ton of backround of mechanical engineering, but you're trying to figure out you know, they're very expensive, these mechanical engineers. They cause it cost a lot of money and I'm getting some pressure to cut costs and so I'm starting to think like well, one of that mechanical engine so I like that. So I could see like a thought pattern that gets you to a place where you like, I want to get closer to what the mechanical engineers are doing, but at the same time I think they're like there's this other part of what we're saying is that the you know, knowing what what you need or what a team needs is a knowable thing. That's like a pretty big assumption, because I think sometimes some of the best moments that I had in my career supporting people in superstar mode is when someone expressed a desire to do a thing that I had no idea if it was really going to make a huge difference for us as an organization. But they're so excited about it and they're convinced that's from how it's going to help us, and I'm like well, sure, like let's Yeh off the clip whether I figure out if this is actually going to make a difference. And those have been some of the most, you know, the the most pleasant surprises that I've had. Why? I can think of a client that we worked with, one of the engineers that they hired. He's just like he had a passion for teaching and for and for learning, and so he liked built this whole speaker series inside their organization. Had nothing to do with his job. You didn't get compensated anything extra for doing...

...this. Is just something that he wanted to do and it turned out like it started to show up and surveys. Is like one of the best parts of working for this company as an engineers. It's like amazing speaker series that this person had created. That's part of what I'm saying about inflexibility. I think too often we're convinced that in order to support people in superstar mode or in Rockstar mode, they have to fit inside some preconceived notion container that we have created for other people. And often the what I've noticed is that the containers that we create for jobs are created in a way sort of like based on an average person. I'm like someone who's decent at the roll, but not necessarily exceptional. So you look at a job description, you're like that doesn't describe a rock star. That actually describes like a pretty mediocre person in this role. I guess, like what I would love to see when people think about growth management in the way that you define it, is like I how can I create space, like for our my people in rockstar mode to express their genius? Right, like what am I doing? That's allowing them to like really shine. And so for this person, it was this thing that he did, this this series of talks that that he organized was like really expressing his genius, was around teaching and learning and creating these these moments. I hadn't thought about it exactly away, but that's led to a lot of really interesting sort of pivots and people's careers who have worked for me as like just giving them that space. And it's not just about doing that for superstars. It's also about doing or people in superstar art. It's also about doing that for people in Rockstar mode. Yeah, I think you're you are exactly, exactly right. We tend to sort of assume that there's this average. There's no such thing as average, right. There's no such thing. I mean, there is such thing as an average but there's no such thing as an average person. And also the thing that you said that really resonated for me is that very often people don't respect the work. Like that, the boss, the person I hired to be the boss of the guy who is a great customer service Rep he thought customer service was a role for B players, right he and back to he explicitly said that, and so he treated his employ like a quote unquote be player and he didn't respect him. And I think it is really important that we remember, when hiring people, to respect the people and also the work that the people do. You know, you don't need this guy's opinion about hiring a customer service team was that he needed to hire a bunch of B and c players, and that's not what he needed to do. He needed to hire a players who were really interested in customer support work, who are a plus customer support and he just viewed it as a lesser role. So there's this kind of judgmental arrogance that creeps in. That's part of also why I don't like the term talent management is that it kind of invites that that kind of judgmental arrogance. In some ways it's sort of a it's sort of like a fourth element or like a maybe it's like a purple flag. It's a barb, like a bias purple flag, which is like when you're when you're actually thinking about your team and you're thinking about people's express desire for growth, there demonstrate that what they've demonstrate in terms of their capability to do new things and then the team's needs. You want to make sure that you're including in that you're not biased and focused only on the roles that either you understand the best or that you think are the most important, but you're actually really valuing the contribution of each person on your team. You're waiting that contribution appropriately. I feel like that's such like a healthy sort of mindset for going into any sort of capacity planning. I don't I still don't know exactly what the right thing is to call the thing, but like for going into growth management of people, like took the time...

...to actually bring those elements, that that sort of like group of ideas or mindsets to bear. Those conversations would be much better, because I do feel like talent management as it exists in most organizations winds up feeling like a cage match where you're yes, that's like you're either defending or attacking. So you know what I'm saying. Like so you're defending your team and attacking somebody else's team because you're all like fighting over these resources. When the IT'S A it's a usually very silly way to wind up thinking about it. Yeah, I think there's another nuance that happens in a lot of companies, which is that when people tend to reserve the highest ratings for people, for employees who are in superstar mode, who are gunning for that next promotion, because a high rating kind of helps justify the promotion, which is which systematically disadvantages people who are in Rockstar mode because now, all of a sudden, because they don't want that next promotion, they're not going to get the high rating and they're not going to get the big bonus. You know, this doesn't play out everywhere, but this really plays out where IT companies that do, quote unquote, pay for performance, and now all of a sudden you're not paying people who are performing very well because they don't want the next job. And so it's ironic. It's actually very anti meritocratic, although I don't even like the word. I think meritocracy is bullshit, as it is generally practice, but that's a whole other podcast. Yeah, so I think that it is. You want to make sure that you're allocating bonuses fairly across people who are in superstar and rock star mode. Is what I'm was a long window way of saying you don't want to pay people in in Rockstar mode less than people in superstar mode. The financial reward for being in superstar mode comes when they get that promotion, but it shouldn't be reflected in their bonus. So let me give you an example of a time when someone I knew who was in superstar mode had his wings clipped. So shortly after I joined Google, Larry Page told a story about being at a consulting firm and, as boss said, I want you to do this project this way, and that was going to take him the whole summer and he had a different idea in which he could do the whole project in one hour. His boss just wouldn't let him do it that way and forced him because his boss was intimidated by by Larry, I think. And so Larry drudged away all summer doing it the boss's way any and he said I hope no one a google ever feels that way. It was very conscious. Now Google is probably over indexed towards people who are in superstar mode and not respectful enough of people in Rockstar mode, but I think that is an example of you very often, if you are a manager and you are afraid that someone who works for you is going to wind up being your boss, you should celebrate that. You should not clip that person's wings. All right, so now it's time for our radical candor checklist. These are tips you can use to start putting radical candor into practice right away. Tip Number One. If you want to know what mode the folks you work with are in, listen to what they say they want. What is their desire to grow, what's their demonstrated ability to do new things and what is the team's need that might support that team members growth? Tip Number two, when it comes to growth management, don't clip the wings of people who are in superstar mode and don't disrespect people who are in Rockstar mode. Don't sort of view them as lesser mortals, especially if you yourself are in superstar...

...mode and beware. We have such a bias. When we're in one mode, we want everyone else in that mode with us. So be aware of your own biases. And tip number three, don't put people in boxes. All of this is temporary, that none of these states are permanent, and so when you're thinking about People's growth trajectory, don't allow your perception to limit the future choice that they might make. For more to ups, you can go to radical candorcom backslash resources to download our learning guides for practicing radical candor. If you want to see the show notes for this episode, Head over to radical CANDORCOM backslash podcast. If you like what you here, go ahead rate us, review us on Apple podcast and, of course, don't forget to order Kim's latest book. Just work how to root out bias, prejudice and bullying to create a kick ass culture of inclusion and, yes, available everywhere books are sold. Finally, if you haven't heard, the radical candor store now open. Get Your mugs, get your swag. Go to radical candorcom, click the shop link and get the radical candor framework on your beverage of choice container by for now. Thank care, don't put the boxes bye bye. Thanks for joining us. Our podcast features radical candor co founders Kim Scott and Jason Rose. Off is produced by our director of content, Brandy meal, and hosted by me, Amy Sandler. Music is by cliff gold mocker. Go ahead and follow us on twitter at candor and find US online at radical candorcom.

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